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Today I chanced upon a lengthy discussion among some people on the much whipped topic, clothes or rather the lack of it on the person of the younger lot. Let me rephrase part of it, clothes or lack of it on the female of the younger lot. Parents were being cautioned to exercise more strictness on their offspring (read female). There were some expressions of helplessness from a few of the participants (what can parents do?? *Sob sob*) on the difficulty in making the rebellious (female) youngsters toe the line. But, what took the cake for me was the general agreement on one thing: it is the skimpy dresses the girls wear that is the reason for the misadventures they face in society.
This is actually nothing new to me. I have been hearing such baseless nonsense from the time I have been two and a half feet high or perhaps even as long as I can remember. Now I have not only grown to a respectable five feet, but also have covered five decades of my life. And believe it or not, NOTHING seems to have really changed. They still repeat the same old baloney these days too. ‘Cover up girls or else….!’ it goes, like a broken record. The onus it seems is still on the woman.
Now that does surprise me a little bit. Normally we learn with time. Not so it seems with dumb society. One would think a conclusion such as this which has over time been disproved again and again would have woken the dumb Society up big time, enough to go looking for other more real reasons for this continued state of affairs. But no, with characteristic stubbornness, Society and its Main Components of Morons still hold steadfastly to the moronic “wisdom” that atrocities on women are dependent on what they wear.
Oh really??!
I suppose pretending to be blind and deaf, while doling out cures for what plagues it, is the Society’s prerogative. Or else it might have to answer the cries of the violated babies and toddlers, the sobs of the grandmothers, the anguished tears of the very ordinary folk in their ‘respectable’ attire (dictated as safe by that very society) who form the majority that is preyed upon. But in trying to hypnotize ALL into believing such absolute baloney about skimpy clothes being THE reason, dumb Society is questioning the intelligence of those of us with functioning brains.
The majority may be in that induced state of zombie-hood where they wrongly believe in such drilled drivel. Or else how the hell can anyone say sanctimoniously, “Even some four–year olds wear skimpy clothes”. I swear to you, I am not joking. Do you grasp what that sentence implies?? Do you realize how far this ‘skimpy clothes is the reason’ has taken us?? Now we are saying that a kid of four (or her parents by default), attracts molestation by her ‘skimpy’ dress. For God’s sake! So what do we do?? Cover up our kids with sack and tie the loose ends so nothing would show to tempt the prowling dogs?? Give me a break. How about training those dogs not to pounce? Is that too much to ask??
Aren’t we a WONDERFUL society?? We train the canine canines we own, but we don’t train the human canines that live among us to behave themselves. Instead we let them loose on the society and ask everyone else including the four year olds to take protective measures. Nobody is against protective measures, as monsters can exist anywhere and care has to be taken. But how can society degrade to such a level that people refer to what even children wear as skimpy?? Too skimpy for what?? Would that really be a cute baby frock they are talking about?? What would be the level of brainwashing for someone to say that, do you think?? The next thing you know, someone would say your baby in her rompers in the crib is also skimpily dressed and might be a source of temptation, so bundle her up.
Among the many comments that made up the discussion, there was only one, just one solitary comment that did not agree with the general trend and said,
“I personally don’t agree with the statement that women tend to be the target of eve teasers/rapists because of clothes they wear! It’s all due to the mentality of the guys in question! A guy with a sick mind would target a woman even if she is wearing a salwar suit or sari! Women’s clothing can be provocative sometimes I agree, but citing that as the reason for women getting into trouble is just a lame excuse for blaming the women victims instead of the criminals! Sadly this is aided by our society itself!”
Ohh well. Thank God for small mercies. Someone at least thinks those other than the skimpily dressed could be at fault! Did you notice the word he (yes, this comment is by a man) used to describe the excuse society and the majority of its unthinking components use?? LAME. He hits the nail on the head with the word. The excuse is nothing but lame, without basis, used to cover up a lot of other failings that have to be addressed and are not, an excuse without backing of facts used to justify the errant ways because solving it would mean moving away from the present comfort zone of the society. Religion, culture, tradition will all be dragged in, apart from the glory of womanhood, honor (which it seems is something so special that ONLY us useless women can uphold it) and what not, to justify retaining status quo, to continue blaming the woman and her clothes or lack of it for the actions of certain men.
By this logic, civilizations of the past should not have survived. They wore rather even skimpier clothing. And I know for a fact that their collapse was not due to men jumping on those skimpily clad women of the times. In fact there was a time in India when both men and women wore the same attire and went topless. Were men of the past of better caliber than the present day ones?? We know what the guilty men do in the present times. Like spoilt brats, they point to the victim and say petulantly, “She made me do it!” and the society at large like an over indulgent and useless mother comforts, “There, there my dear child! Is she the one?? We’ll make sure neither she nor any of her ilk will do any such thing again, okay?? Aww… mere acha bacha, mat ro!”
If only the society turned its ire on the supposedly acha bacha and like a true mother, gave him one solid whack on his fleshy bottom and asked him to behave himself, how different things would have been. She will wear what she likes, understood?? Keeping control over yourself is your damn business. Get it?? Which society has the guts to tell their wild sons that?? Obviously not the Indian society, not yet anyway.
Yet, the same society expects a hungry homeless child to control its basic human feeling of hunger and won’t condone if he runs away with the food on their table just because it was in front of the child’s eyes tempting him. Even a small hungry child from the poorer section of society knows he cannot snatch the ice-cream that is displayed so tantalisngly. Why?? How does he know that?? How come grown men do not know the difference?? If at all the child transgressed and stole the ice cream, will any one blame the ice-cream for looking oh-so-tempting or ask the ice-cream seller not to display it any more?? Then, why does society indulge the LAME excuses of no good monsters for their transgressions??
When wild animals, attracted by human scent enter populated areas, maul and kill humans, none (not even Maneka Gandhi) will champion their cause to roam the streets free and attack humans as they wish. None shall request you wear armor always and forever. Instead the appropriate authorities step in and the wild animals are mercilessly shot, if not captured and caged or even released in the jungles where they rightly belong. But….
When women are attacked in a civilized society by the wild among them, the onus is conveniently shifted to the victim; they are asked to cover themselves up so the ‘wild’ can roam free without being “tempted”. Society SHAMELESSLY absolves itself of the duty to ‘tame’ these ‘wild’ among us or even cage/ shoot them if need be. Instead it even more shamelessly preoccupies itself with its one and ONLY favorite pastime: CLOTHING THE WOMEN.
Shame on you Society!
Updated to add related posts:
Rapists (Vivek)
Slut Walk: Instead of focusing on the issues the media focuses on how women must protest (IHM)
Hi shail! How conveniently society blames the victim for the excesses of the culprits:)
@sajeev kumar menon,
As long as society blames the victims, no amount of punishing the culprits will change anything. That’s the sad part of it. 😦
Unless society understands that sexual harassment/rape is not about sex at all but control, we will never change. Draupadi was dressed as per the norms in those days, that did not stop them from trying to disrobe her in public. She was disrobed not because of her clothes, but because she laughed at an inopportune moment and a humorless male ego could not deal with that and decided to retaliate with a crime that’s much more serious than the mistake.
@Agnija Bharathi,
Actually, I despair reading some of the discussions. It goes something like this, ‘Yes yes, the culprit is at fault, but the women should not tempt them” I wish I had the ‘uninstall’ program to remove the already installed software in some people’s brains. I mean how else can you convince them when they deny seeing what is in front of their eyes??! From Draupadi (probably before) to modern woman, has covering up from head to toe stopped men from harassing??!!
Of course it is ego at work.
Yes, I completely agree. Rape is about power and control, rape is about bestiality. High time society did something to cure itself of this sickness.
@Phoenixritu,
It IS! But we may have to use drastic methods to remove the virus that is so firmly entrenched in the system before it can be understood that rape is about power and not the exposure of the female body!
Brilliantly said Shail. Shared it on facebook, let me share it on twitter too. I think we should say it in whichever way it would be understood until this is understood.
@Indianhomemaker,
Yes I feel so too. If we can at least make one person see the reality we can congratulate ourselves on success. I feel this is such an uphill task because it is a matter of denial of the obvious. The fact is there right in front of our eyes, with proof. But still people want to believe otherwise.
We have a Mallu saying, “Sankaran pinneyum thengil thanne” (Sankaran again on the coconut tree) That’s how it is when it comes to this matter. “Yeah, yeah, true, culprits are to blame, they have to be punished, yeah yeah…. BUT… women should not expose.” How can both go together?? Beats me!
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“How about training those dogs not to pounce?”
Here’s your key point, right here.
Good article. The problem seems so obvious, doesn’t it?
So does the solution to it.
@Teresa Silverthorn,
Welcome to Shail’s Nest and thank you for the comment. So obvious and yet people are in denial. 🙂
Precisely and passionately expressed with no holes in your logic and I agree of course. A related problem that I see is the seemingly unending ability of “wrongdoers” to consistently blame others for their horrific behavior. Today in our local paper “The Carlsbad Current Argus” is the story of two teens in a city 60 miles north of here being charged with putting their their 53-year old foster mother in a “chokehold”, tying her hands and feet, then smothering her to death with a pillow. Then they stole the car of their recently deceased foster mom and fled.
I know that his isn’t a rape story story, but it illustrates another instance of human beings attacking their fellow human beings. My guess is that as the story unfolds we will learn of the horrible behavior or the foster mom and an empassioned lawyer will take their case to prove their innocence. Of course, no one should be considered guilty until proved so. In the course of sorting out this poor foster mother’s demise, I am pretty sure that the blame will be laid on her. We will probably find out that the daughters had no other options, but to smother their their. She will be blamed I bet and since she is no longer among us to tell her story we will only learn some of the factors in tis terrible deed.
The modus operandi for many people is to blame our crimes against others by blaming the others with whatever we can think of,no matter how irrational. I for one think that lawyers sometimes promote the notion that we individuals don’t have to be responsible for our actions, a “GOOD” (fast-talking) lawyer can and will shift the blame to the victim.
I think that rapists (and mother, foster or not, killers have sick minds) and the rest of society needs to be protected from suchpeople with “sick minds” no matter who or what they blame for their lawless, violent, and crazy behavior.
🙂 🙂 🙂
correction from above
I know that this isn’t a rape story
@Bob Hoff,
That is a sad story 😦 You are right about the “seemingly unending ability of “wrongdoers” to consistently blame others for their horrific behavior.” Pointing fingers and absolving themselves of blame is what wrong doers are looking for and when society too aids them, the magnitude of the disaster is complete.
And a society can be protected from such crazed individuals only when they are in one mind that the onus to control themselves is on them and not others. Don’t you think so?? 🙂
Brilliantly written….u have really hit the nail on the head. Shame on you, society!! 😡
How convenient to always dump blame on the hapless female… 😐
@Ashwathy,
Thank you. It is indeed a shame dumping the responsibility on women. Instead of asking the women to cover up, I wonder why Society does not advocate that men be blindfolded, or better still, keep the boys at home and let the women go out. After all the boys are the ones causing trouble. So shouldn’t they be the one kept at home and not allowed to move around freely??!! Beats me why they don’t do that. Instead of that they keep the innocent girls at home and restrict her movements.
@Shail, Because it’s easier to control girls. The onus of ‘honour’ has always been labelled on the girls. Why never guys, I presume??
@Ashwathy,
Yeah, why indeed have they given women the honor of carrying such a burden?? Men could keep it. I am sure women would be only too happy to let them have it with a free meal thrown in. 😛
I can get away with my actions that are sordid,
all I’ve to do is blame the victim for what I did,
and I know I need not at any time be afraid,
for people like me the society will never get rid.
This post is so brilliant, candid and splendid
and a whiplash on minds so morbid.
@Govind,
Thanks. You said it. Be it a high profile offspring or a slum dweller’s son, they know whom they can blame and get away for what they have done. In fact recently there was a story of a man who blurted (boasted would be a better word) out his crime to the police because he was so sure the woman would not complain against him, a matter of izzat. The culprits are so sure Society will make it difficult for the victim. 😦
The punishments should be strict on the culprits so that anyone dare to misbehave with a women will think twice even to look.
@Maddy,
Hmm… for the present that is all we can do. But we can at least change the future with the right attitude inculcated in the kids.
I dont know what to say .. I am just sad that such SICK sado’s live in our society and blame game continues .. instead of punishing the culprit .. SAD
@Bikram,
Yeah, sad isn’t it that everyone is more concerned about finding who is at fault when all you need to do is treat it as a crime and punish?!
yes punish them first …
and congrats on the Tangy tuesday pick… 🙂
well done
Bikram’s
Excellent post. I have no idea how many times these thoughts have been re-iterated, but they just seem to bounce off more than half of society.
Like you say… just one solitary comment in the discussion wondering about the true reason. In fact I think, society is not even trying to solve the problem, or is interested in finding a true solution. They are just satisfied with the simple solution.
@Aathira,
Sadly so, yes they seem, to bounce off uselessly. I just read a discussion on Gbuzz and its the same story, going round and round in circles: “Yes the culprit has to be punished, BUT women shouldn’t expose no??” *rolls eyes* Haven’t they defeated the first fact by the second one?!
This is absolutely true, and how can someone say such bull about four year olds being skimpily dressed, Id keep an eye on that guy if he can even gauge a four year old, its not the women, its the stupid, drunk, horny and pampered, uncivilised jerks walking the streets!!!
@Kartik,
Welcome to Shail’s Nest Kartik and I am mighty pleased to see you here. Well, I’d like to point out your comment to any of the others who still think otherwise. I might go hoarse (mentally) with some people not seeing the obvious. There was this guy comparing a harasser to a sick man who cannot help being sick. Hmm… but don’t sick people belong in hospitals being treated??! Beats me why THAT was being overlooked.
Believe it or not, that observation about the 4-year old was said by a woman. I don’t know what she meant. I tried imagining all sorts of dresses on a 4-year old, but couldn’t come up with any that justified that statement. That is the one sentence that had my blood boiling.
“How about training those dogs not to pounce? Is that too much to ask??”
Very well said. Blaming the violated only confers more power on the violator.
@Tom,
Welcome to Shail’s Nest and thank you for dropping by. What you say is absolutely true. I wish more people would see the blaming for what it does.
Very well constructed article with irrefutable arguments.
It is my belief that the Indian male is in general too immature to appreciate the opposite sex. Say what..you have just given me an idea to write a blog about it..thanks.
@Vivek,
You are welcome and thank you. I am waiting to read your post Vivek 🙂 Your observation about immaturity reminds me to write something too 🙂
Well written Shail! Even educated people tend to put if off says its culture for the girl to wear sarees and that western clothes provoke attack.
@Haritha,
Welcome to Shail’s Nest. Lol, yes, they blame Western wear and don’t have an answer to why all the sari and salwar clad women are being attacked. Of course they will say even Duryodhan disrobed Draupadi because of Western influence!
If we assume that no(nsense)tion to be true, in remote villages where women don’t cover breasts or the tribes where people don’t wear clothes, sexual assaults should be a 24×7 phenomena. Well, that’s not the case.
It’s quite simple. People prefer blaming the female wearing ‘less’ clothes than most others.
@Haresh,
Welcome to Shail’s Nest. The fact that molestation is less among them seems to go right over the heads of people who shout ‘cover up the girls’. There is a saying, ‘You can take a horse to the water but cannot make it drink’. You have the proof, the studies, the examples. But still the majority insist on sticking to their baseless arguments. Rewiring brains seems to be the only option left.
Extremely brilliant post Shail.
Thought provoking and scathing at the same time.
LOVED it
🙂
Thanks for writing this. Am sharing it with my friends here.
@momofrs,
It couldn’t have been too scathing for me. I was so angry reading about 4 year olds wearing scanty clothes. Really, what ARE we coming to??!
Till recently (100 years back?) in Kerala women went topless, just a casual cloth thrown across the breast when they went outside. But now everyone does a song and dance about exposing and inviting attacks!
Thanks for sharing 🙂
Shail,
Sorry for the delay.
I saw this post rather late.
Let me share a few thoughts, which may be at variance with what most of you have opined.
Lest I be misunderstood, let me clearly state that molesting a woman who is “provocatively” dressed is absolutely condemnable.
I also do not subscribe to the view that the woman is guilty of “asking for it”
Unless a woman is also a seductress and gives a “come hither” look, she is most definitely not “asking for it”
Menaka was “asking for it” when she danced in front of Vishwaamitra.
That had a divine purpose. But modern girls who dress the way they sometimes do are no Menakas.
They have their reasons. It could be fashion, it could be the hot weather or it could be dictated by the circumstances.
Sania Mirza and Maria Sharapova must and will dress in short skirts that expose their thighs while playing.
No one among the spectators has any business misbehaving with them.
At a swimming pool, every girl must necessarily be skimpily dressed.
No one has any business misbehaving with them.
While this is easy to appreciate what takes some drilling into some male minds is that males have no business interpreting a woman being dressed “economically” as an invitation to misbehave.
But…
I do emapthize with orthodox elders when they advise girls to be “decently” dressed.
The reason is simply living with some unpleasant facts of life which no one has been able to change even though this change is desirable. This change will take some more generations in our country.
This fact is that all decent men will control their urges but some men are sexual rogues and they will use the opportunity when they see a woman “skimpily” dressed.
These dresses rouse the baser instincts in these men and instead of controlling them, they are tempted to grab an opportunity to misbehave with the woman and the cowardly among them will content themselves with a wolf whistle or a crude remark.
Decent men turn their eyes away if they accidentally see a woman undressing. Only peeping toms will relish the opportunity.
So, elders who discourage girls from exposing their bodies, when not really needed, are merely being practical and taking precautions to PREVENT an unpleasant incident.
They need not always be seen as patriarchal overloads dictating what a girl should wear or not wear.
I agree that If there is eve teasing, action should be taken against the offender and not against the girl.
There can be no two opinions on this. But all the same, in cities, where policing all the rogue males is simply impractical, it makes sense not wearing skimpy clothes in public places with unrestricted access to every one unless one is in safe company.
It is likely that this comment won’t be received well, but I won’t mind that.
Put it down to my age and pardon me for singing a different tune this time.
Regards
GV
@G Vishwanath,
Excuse me, Maneka wasn’t “asking for it”. She was not raped by Vishwamitra. They had consensual sex. There is a difference between the two.
When you agree with women having to cover themselves to prevent attack, you are reiterating the stand that society takes at present, blaming the woman, the victim. My entire blog questions that very presumption. Punishing the culprit is useless if that is the mentality of society.
I am sorry I have contempt for elders (or anyone else) who advice girls to cover up as a solution. Why?? Because they are SO FAR REMOVED FROM GROUND REALITIES. I have already covered it in my post, but will talk of something else here.
Have you heard of a group called Blank Noise?? Some time back they collected clothes from women who were molested and displayed the clothes for the public to see. This exercise was repeated in many cities. The pattern that emerged was chilling though obvious to hapless women like us. And unlike what the Bollywood movies say and which the people seem to take as gospel truth, they were NOT revealing clothes, but were all ordinary wear which are those APPROVED by the so-called wise elders of society. WHY were these women and girls molested while wearing supposedly decent clothes then?? WHY are babies raped?? WHY was that woman who looks just like your mother, plump and in a dowdy sari, raped?? WHY was Bhanwari Devi raped?? It is only in Bollywood movies that a woman is raped for the way she is dressed, not in real life.
Another reason is that as I have ALREADY said in my post, Operation Cover-Up has been in existence since long. It has done NOTHING for the women. And yet, how faithfully (and stupidly) we cling to it as if it is our only hope, refusing to look for other answers. When one clings to an old radio out of sentimental attachment it is cute and touching, call it nostalgia or whatever. But not when you are playing with the lives of women. Useless ideas that have failed so badly over time have to be discarded ruthlessly and the problem looked at from a fresh perspective. When it comes to gadgets, humans love to throw the obsolete and are in a rush to accept the latest. But why stick to harmful and incorrect conclusions that prevent you from seeing the real problem??
Clothes that people wear change over time. Every generation criticizes what the next wears, BE IT GOOD OR BAD, they simply have to criticize and insist elders know best. You yourself are 60+ years old. What did your own parents think of the women of your own generation?? Did they approve of the new dresses that came on the scene?? But in a few years didn’t those very styles become common and acceptable?? Do ladies still wear high-necked loose sari blouses?? But when the present type of tight fitting cholis made the scene, what dire consequences were predicted!? But how come they seem acceptable to us now?? This thing about elders asking youngsters to cover up is merely a DRAMA of life that is enacted by EVERY generation who think they know best. Intelligent people recognize it for what it is: an older generation’s unfamiliarity with things which are outside their comfort zone, which makes them uncomfortable and hence vociferous in objecting to it, sometimes justifying even injurious ideas just to show they know best. BUT TO CALL THAT AS THEIR BEING PRACTICAL IS STRETCHING THINGS TOO FAR. They are just clinging to what they know and saying that is what is good. But is it really so?? My mother in law was scandalized that as a married woman, I wore a salwar kameez in small town Kerala in early 80s. Would you say that she was right in thinking so and stopping me from wearing it, because I might stand out in an as yet salwar-free Mallu-land and attract unwanted attention?? If I obeyed her, I’d be walking around still wrapped in 5 metres of cloth not to mention the unnecessary trappings that go with it for no other reason than her stubbornness. Not listening to her faulty reasoning has only helped me. Sometimes NOT obeying elders gives the BEST results. (In my case make that ALWAYS 😉 ) It is always best to listen to others, but find ones own answers and follow them.
The answer to contain the atrocities on women is NOT as you seem to suggest, in policing of rogue males in the city or elsewhere. It is NEVER the real answer. Teaching the boys/men that girls/women are humans with feelings and desires is the first step. Teaching boys/men to take responsibility for their actions is another. Making them self sufficient, not nincompoops dependent on mothers, sisters, wife, grandmothers for every little thing is another. In fact if Society spent one hundredth of its time it obsesses over controlling girls and spent it on straightening out the boys, this would have been a much better place. Even a single suggestion that women cover as prevention is enough to undo whatever is gained by the above..
Shail,
I think I would make a good astrologer!
I predicted that my response wouldn’t be well received and I was right!
You have argued with passion and conviction but I am unmoved.
I stick to my views. And these views are concurrent with yours and diverge only after a certain stage.
We agree that the behaviour of some males is despicable and condemnable. I am not blaming the woman at all. I am concerned about it and wish to prevent it. I also fully support your view that teaching the males proper behaviour is paramount and policing of rogue males is not the solution.
Till this teaching is completed and all males become aware and learn proper behaviour, I still maintain that elders can be motivated by good intentions when they advise the young to cover up unless they are in safe environments. We the elders are most definitely not staging a drama as stated by you.
I believe the situation is analagous to elders sometimes advising youngsters to put on a something warm when the weather is chilly. It is simply a precaution against catching a cold in bad weather which we can’t change.
It is analogous to advising the use of a mosquito net or a mosquito repellent. We can’t swot all the mosquitoes out there. But that does not preclude any steps from Pest Control which are welcome in addition to using a mosquito net.
It is analogous to to advising youngsters to wear proper foot wear so that they don’t hurt their feet. We can’t eliminate thorns and nails, though sweeping the path wherever practical is welcome. It is simpler to wear shoes or slippers unless one is taking a pleasurable walk on a sandy beach.
Likewise advising young women to cover up is a well intentioned precuation against offensive behaviour which we would like to eliminate but have failed to do so till now. I support any steps in this direction to eliminate this behaviour by counseling and some amount of policing and punishment for offenders. This step of covering up is not INSTEAD of asking the males to behave, it is IN ADDITION to getting the males to behave and can be seen as a wise interim measure till we bring society around.
Though not really relevant to this discussion, let me reiterate what I said about Menaka.
Of course Menaka and Vishwaamitra had concesual sex as you rightly say. Of course he didn’t rape her. So we agree here
But you say Menaka was not asking for it? There I can’t agree.
Certainly Vishwaamitra wasn’t asking for it. Menaka was asked to “ask for it”, loudly and emphatically! There is a context here and we need not go into it. Suffice it to say that she was under instructions to seduce him and she did a competent job of it.
You ask if babies , and women who were otherwise well clad have not been raped. Of course they have. So when there are dangerous male perverts lurking out there, who indulge in these despicable acts even when women are covered up, isn’t it wise to take some precautions? These same males would act with redoubled alacrity, if given an opportunity. A provocatively clad female acts as an appetiser for a rogue male. Covering up prevents many incidents from happening. It can’t guarantee that nothing will happen. Elders are merely suggesting that vital parts of the female anatomy are not exposed to leering and lustful eyes. A wide choice of dresses is available that can meet this requirement with due consideration for the climate of the place. No one is asking them to wear a burka.
Here is another prediction! You are not going to like this response too and will probably come up with another hard hitting rejoinder. I will take that in my stride and merely emit a sigh and agree to quietly differ and drop the matter.
The next time a pretty young lady dressed in a manner that I feel may cause an unpleasant incident asks me “Uncle, how do I look?” I will remember this exchange and quietly say “No comments”.
Let them be entitled to “Freedom of dress” in addition to Freedom of speech.
Regards
GV
@G Vishwanath,
Lol, it needs an astrologer to point out the obvious??!! 🙂 And of course I agree to disagree. But I have to correct a misconception.
To quote you,
//”We the elders are most definitely not staging a drama as stated by you.”//
Excuse me, I did NOT say elders are staging a drama. I said this is a DRAMA of LIFE that is constantly played out where elders criticize anything to do with youngsters. Until we take a step back, we won’t even see it, but all of us sing the same song that has been sung through the ages by hordes of elders. EVERY parent as soon as a child is hardly two years old start off with “Uff… the children of today!” not knowing that is exactly what their parents said, their parents, their parents, their parents… ad infinitum. The next generation IS always different. What is there to be so surprised or shocked about that?? But still, it is as if this is something elders HAVE to say about their children to feel good about themselves; it seems to be a sort of psychological necessity.
All your examples given here were totally unnecessary if you had noticed just one sentence I had written and that too in italics so that it will not go unnoticed. Lol, but you missed it all the same:
//”Nobody is against protective measures, as monsters can exist anywhere and care has to be taken.”//
My post is about how blaming the women and their clothes for the deplorable behavior of some men is not acceptable. Till the time as society throws that reason out, the men will continue using it against women. So what people who ask women to cover up are doing is not preventing trouble for the women, but giving rascals the much needed excuse for their behavior. So what they consider help is nothing but hindrance.
I found one of your observations very interesting:
//A provocatively clad female acts as an appetiser for a rogue male.//
Oh really??
Not once have you talked about any other means of provocation that whets the appetite of rogue men. What about porn?? Then there is low self esteem issues, and the wish to dominate. How about bruised egos??
Ahh I know Society does not have the guts to even talk about such things as means of provocation. They have only one soft target to practice their shots on. They have only one clothes hanger to hang all their ills: women and their clothes or lack of it.
By the way, I too am an elder. 🙂 I hope you know that, though I don’t subscribe to the views of the elders of our society. And I rightly agree with your ‘No comments’ on that occasion is the best.
@G Vishwanath,
By the way I have not understood WHY we are discussing Maneka and Viswamitra here and in what connection it is?!
I agree that Menaka and Vishwaamitra are not relevant to this discussion.
It all started of with my initial comment which was:
————–
Unless a woman is also a seductress and gives a “come hither” look, she is most definitely not “asking for it”
Menaka was “asking for it” when she danced in front of Vishwaamitra.
That had a divine purpose. But modern girls who dress the way they sometimes do are no Menakas.
They have their reasons. It could be fashion, it could be the hot weather or it could be dictated by the circumstances.
—————-
You responded:
====================
Excuse me, Maneka wasn’t “asking for it”. She was not raped by Vishwamitra.
They had consensual sex. There is a difference between the two.
============================
I replied:
———————–
Though not really relevant to this discussion, let me reiterate what I said about Menaka.
Of course Menaka and Vishwaamitra had concesual sex as you rightly say. Of course he didn’t rape her. So we agree here
But you say Menaka was not asking for it? There I can’t agree.
Certainly Vishwaamitra wasn’t asking for it. Menaka was asked to “ask for it”, loudly and emphatically! There is a context here and we need not go into it. Suffice it to say that she was under instructions to seduce him and she did a competent job of it.
———————
You now ask:
=================
By the way I have not understood WHY we are discussing Maneka and Viswamitra here and in what connection it is?!
===================
My reply:
——————–
Yes, we need not discuss it at all. It is not relevant now. I also pointed it out in my previous comment above.
———————-
Regards
GV
@G Vishwanath,
Ahh.. it struck me I had spoken of a different Maneka in the post and hence asked 🙂
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It’s really sad, Shail. Trust me, THIS was the conversation I had to go through today at lunch – This was quoted by a GIRL – “I will always blame the girl. for provoking men”… to which I said, “I am sorry I don’t agree at all. Recently the papers carried a news of an 11 year old boy raping a girl younger to him.” Tell me, what kind of provocation was present in that case???
Such sick mentality I tell you – blame the girls!!! As if, men are Gods and should not be blamed at all.. as if it is their birth right to force a girl’s modesty!!!
Instead of punishing the men who commit crimes, the victims are blamed for having provoked men.. nothing could be more gross than such kind of thinking. Makes me wonder when will they ‘grow’ up .. or will they???
My doubts would be,
A person who is a sexual pervert, even wearing a gunny bag will NOT stop him…
Cases where men have committed crimes with their own daughters, what sort of provocation was THERE???
Little girls becoming victims of heinous crimes – again.. MUST be the MISTAKE of the little girl – she should have been born with the knowledge that she is a GIRL and should COVER herself up completely from childhood.. even before she learns to talk.
And the debate continues…
I am on your side. Definitely.
@Punam,
Welcome to Shail’s Nest Punam and thank you. I know how you must have felt when that was said. Something like the extinction of dinosaurs should happen methinks to wipe out such moronic thinking.
These creatures who ‘get provoked and harm’ have been around since long and the old ways of ‘covering up girls’ has been tried, tested and FAILED miserably. And yet people quote it as if it is irrefutable truth. In technology will anyone use failed methods?? They are discarded, mistakes learnt are noted and new ways looked for. But when it comes to rapists and harassers, they want to use the same old TRUSTED but FAILED methods. I wonder why some people refuse to OPEN their eyes and SEE WHAT THE TRUTH IS.
Now some of the ‘cover up girls’ theorists have new arsenal to explain the attack on the modestly clad and children. They say such males watch women who expose and are ‘provoked’ into attacking others. In that case, as you rightly point out, even covering ourselves in sack will not save us! Such BS people talk! Won’t this excuse every man who watches a movie with skimpily clad heroines?? He can always blame them for raping the fully clothed ordinary girl next door! So now we women have to take responsibility for what the men watch too?? I cannot even digest the enormity of such INJUSTICE meted out to us women. If the reason babies and ordinary women are being raped is because of what men watch elsewhere isn’t it time alarm bells start ringing and such men are seriously dealt with?? Of course that’s what we would expect to happen if people were reasonable. But what our dear elders (and the likes of the girl who spoke to you) say is that everything will be solved when we cover ourselves from head to toe. Such utter crap.
I read a satirical post (I must ask permission and translate it and post it here some day) where after considering all points the author concluded, the only solution for women seems to commit mass suicide. Perhaps the person is right.
I have commented earlier in one of your posts citing Michael Crichton’s ‘Disclosure’. He says sexual harassment is not about sex, but about power. Absolutely true. Rape happens everywhere, in the roads, at office and even at homes. It is a blatant show of power. There are husbands who rape their wives; though it might sound ridiculous there are wives who rape their husbands, not a physiological impossibility at all;there are fathers who rape their daughters and in most cases it wouldn’t have mattered what they wore.It is the sick mind of the perpetrator than anything else. The sooner everybody realizes this and treats the malady the better it is for everyone. A wrong diagnosis will only lead to a faulty prognosis.
Today there was a article in the TOI (Times Of India) that in Pakistan a middle aged woman was paraded naked on the streets for being the rapist’s mother.
We can shake our heads in disbelief and say how crazy it is but for the people who decreed this it is not crazy at all. We can shrug our shoulders and say it’s in Pakistan, it is not any better here.
@Govind,
Sick mind of the perpetrator and show of power, the deadly reasons for the sexual harassment/molestation. And yes, it is NOT about sex at all. But why people still love to cling to that belief is beyond me. //A wrong diagnosis will only lead to a faulty prognosis// That wrong diagnosis is THE problem still.
It’s such horrible news, shaming the rapist’s mother for what he did. It is for the same reason that I hate the abuses that are freely used. For example, SOB. Are you blaming the person or his mother?? Why not call the person a dog and be done with it?? But no, his mother has to be maligned too. The abuses are all about mothers and sisters, innocent people drawn into it for no fault of theirs.
Of course it is not better in India though we like to think it is. Except that we can write about it in blogs with impunity. The way the new IT laws are, may be even that is not to be.
Nicely framed arguments. I would fully agree in the context of Indian,Islamic and other similar conservative societies. However I am not so sure if it would apply to western society which is leading this latest ‘Slut walk’ thingy.
As far as my understanding of current Western culture goes, casual sex is a norm and the lines between cosensual sex and rape are not clearly drawn. So the woman can’t be completely absolved of the blame in the cases . Of course I am not talking of the especially violent and brutal cases where it is clearly rape.But more the borderline cases like that of Julian Assange of Wiki Leaks. How is a Western man to know whether a woman is genuinely rebuffing his advance or just acting hard to get while really desiring the contact? We have authors like Ayn Rand, indicating in their books that women like to be taken by force.
@The Fool,
Thank you. I don’t agree. Whether conservative societies or otherwise, blaming the women for the actions of men is not done. Period.
Though it does not seem relevant to my post, I’d say that if a man cannot find out the difference between genuine rebuff or a woman playing hard to get, he has the CHOICE not to go ahead. If he decides to find out, that decision is HIS responsibility. Unlike the gentleman above, I don’t agree that Vishwamitra is blameless. Maneka danced, he fell for it. He had the CHOICE not to fall. The fact that he did is HIS OWN responsibility. Kids all around me were taking drugs while I was in college. If I had joined them, it would have been MY decision. If I say my friends forced me or influenced me or tempted me, I would just be a cry-baby not willing to accept responsibility for my actions, pushing off the blame on others. THAT is the difference that the Society as a whole does not seem to understand. I am not surprised. We as a Society are NOTHING BUT A BUNCH OF CRY-BABIES, experts in passing off blame in every field. For example, we cry ourselves hoarse that our culture is going to the dogs because of Western influence never accepting that we are rotting from within.
Consensual sex is with agreement of both and rape is without. Where is the thin line?? As for Assange’s case, if the women had consensual sex and then changed their tune and are accusing him, it is like any other crime of lying and defamation has to be dealt with. If not, then it is another story.
My post is about why women as a whole are being held responsible for the crimes (rape, harassment) men commit. Women are asked to cover up so men don’t go astray. Now THAT is never acceptable. If there is general acceptance that men are unable to control themselves, then Society has to find ways to teach men how to control themselves in the presence of women who wear fewer clothes, NOT tell women to cover up.
You asked, how is a man to know whether it is a genuine rebuff or a woman playing hard to get. Right, so the man does not know and still he pushes ahead and finds out he made a mistake. Happens. But WHY should women be blamed for the mistake HE made?? Did the man not have the choice to NOT force the issue?? HE CHOSE force instead of walking away and then he blames the woman??
As for Ayn Rand, if she has said women like to be taken by force, haven’t you also read a million others who say the opposite?? So why believe her and not the others?? Is it because believing Ayn Rand is rather convenient for men??
There is a lot of misunderstanding about the slut-walk among men and women. I have understood the motive behind it and agree with it.
Reply button to your reply comment is not working. So putting up my reply to your comment as a seperate comment. Though I wish life was balck and white, I beleive it is actually grey and always both sides have a point and I am uncomfortable with positions that unilaterally take one side. That is the reason I would like to continue the argument with you.
My personal opinion is that whereas I agree with your opinions 100% in the Indian context, our Indian women do not have a common cause with their Western counterparts as the contexts are absolutely different. Mating is a basic instict and finds expression through different ways and there is a difference it finds expression in East and West. Swami Vivekanda says “Every Eastern man consider a woman not his wife his mother whereas a Western man consider ever woman not his mother his wife” Though it is a broad sweeping statement, the point is whereas in East we still have arrange marriages and not much casual sex, in West things have to work by instict. So women there are actually open to be picked up by strangers in pubs and that is how mating works there. Skimpy clothes is one of the symbols there that they are open to be picked up. So a woman who is not open to be picked up should not give that signal. Britian tried to pass a law that every sexual intercourse should have written consent from the woman. But in those countries things work by instinct and when in heat, a man can’t take a stamp paper out and get the woman’s signature before proceeding with the act, eh? He has to go by signals only from one stage to the next of the mating ritual and as much as a man can make a mistake in reading a signal wrong, so can a woman in giving the wrong signal. Here I am talking about normal man looking to find a mate and not the criminals and the loonies.
@The Fool,
First of all, I reiterate once again. It is NOT skimpy clothes that is the reason for men to commit atrocities against women, whether in the West or East. We are agreed on that?
About Swami Vivekananda’s observation, I am sorry to say I don’t agree with it AT ALL. Perhaps during his time it was so. But definitely not in the last half century that I have been around. That is just a glossy outer cover that we in the East like to pretend about while the reality is that we are no different from the rest of the world.
In the case you outline, where wrong signals are given or wrong signals assumed yes, mistakes can happen. Then BOTH parties will have to take responsibility for their actions. But this has to be a society that does NOT hold a woman responsible for man’s actions, a society that does not blame and shame just the woman and acquits a man as a creature who has no control over his actions.
I disagree about this term skimpy clothes, though. The same amount of clothes that a man wears mysteriously is termed skimpy when found on a woman. It again comes back to the question WHY can’t women wear what we are comfortable with, what we like without attributing signals to it??! When tribal women go topless and have fewer crimes against them, what is wrong with the supposedly civilized society that it has to blame women??
Fully agree with you as far as atrocities go. I never attributed attrocities to any behavior on the part of victim. I was just exploring what technically qualifies as rape from a legal angle due to a misunderstanding.Say in a culture wearing a single ear ring indicates a woman single and ready to mingle. Can a woman who does not want unwanted male attention wear a single ear ring and then be surprised at the amount of unwanted male attention she receives. I just wondered if skimpy clothes had such symbolism is Western culture. In our Indian society clearly, we know mostly women do not want casual sex and skimpy clothes have no such symbolism though it can look a bit outlandish and can definitely invite stares. Thats all the was the point I wanted to make. Was just trying to add value by exploring a different angle instead of just blindly accepting your views. Otherwise agree with your views in most parts.
@The Fool,
Okay I got that.
Well as far as your example goes. Yes, if that single ear-ring indicates she is ready to mingle, then she cannot object to attention from the male. But she still retains the right to what extent that attention goes. I’d give the same right to man too.
Hi,
There was an article regarding the same issue in TOI.Due to such instances of shifting blame on the victim,some women are taking part in an event which I find plain silly and frivolous,more about it here..
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/home/opinion/edit-page/Whats-In-A-Name/articleshow/8865583.cms
@Aru,
Welcome to Shail’s Nest. Actually I don’t find it frivolous or silly. So many years, so much of progress, so much of proof otherwise, but still when it comes to crimes against women, it is still the same old story: it is because they weren’t dressed properly.
I understand the spirit of slut-walk and am with it. I don’t agree with the conclusions made in the article.
Hah! Brilliant write-up Shail. India is a male driven society and however bent toward the thought “what males do shall not be questioned.” Every time a women has to subject her to ordeals.
SlutWalk is also an initiative to make people realize, “women are not tool of your ecstasy.”
@Prateek,
Welcome to Shail’s Nest. I agree, ‘women are not tools of man’s ecstasy’ is a lesson that men and society as a whole have to learn.
What I mean by lines not being clearly drawn is that there women consent for certain sexual acts and not for others. And anything more than what they consent for is considered rape and this consent is not in wirting. So how would a man know what all she has consented for and what she has not consented for? The regular straightforward indian man is tempered to keep his mating instincts in check, in West the culture drives you to gratification. So a Western man who does not make his moves will loose out in the race to seek gratification of his mating instincts. So the moves can lead to hazy situations where neither the man nor the courts are clear what the woman has consented for. I am for all for a law everywhere that says any consensual sex without written consent on what is allowed can be considered rape if the woman chooses to file and appeal.
@The Fool,
I agree it is a bit hazy and the man may not know the extent of consent. But I’d also say that when a woman says No it should be accepted as a No (even at the risk of that No being a disguised Yes). That’s what I feel. The woman will then be the loser too, so let her learn the lesson and grow up enough to say Yes when she means Yes.
I also think a woman’s ownership over her body comes before man’s gratification. In fact as far as gratification goes it is about both the partners and never one alone.
A clearer picture ought to emerge since the haziness is due to change.
Hmm… I tend to agree with you, sometimes you do need written consent on what is or what is not allowed. I am not joking either. There are a lot of things that come under the title ‘gratification’ that if any one does not understand a No to mean No, it ends up a disaster. So yes, written consent seems a good idea, and yes, in marriages too.
Quote:
============
I am for all for a law everywhere that says any consensual sex without written consent on what is allowed can be considered rape if the woman chooses to file and appeal.
=============
Unquote:
Hey! This is really interesting indeed!
So I suppose men and women must now equip themelves with stamp paper, stamp pad, and a pen too when they go dating?
What about pre-printed forms with check boxes indicating options allowed?
What about two witnesses to attest the signature indicating consent?
Should this consent be registered with newly formed The Regional Sex authority?
What will be the fees payable?
Also, since we are all agreed on the importance of equality between men and women, should a women too insist on written consent from the man?
If there is no such consent, just what crime can the man later charge the woman with?
Is “reverse rape” practical?
Are we going to reduce the act of making love to a surgical procedure like aborthion/vasetomy/tubectomy?
Just wondering aloud.
Regards
GV
Hi Shail,
I came over from IHM’s blog over here. Very well written. If there was a survey of women who were ever eve teased or harassed by local tapories (not molested or raped), I am sure the count would be much more high. I have myself experienced those remarks and all my friends (girls) have experienced them. Some of my friends were scared to tell this to their parents as they might remove them from college. How sad… Instead of putting those animals behind bars, women face the ire and burden.
@adayinlifeofmom,
Welcome to Shail’s Nest and thank you. Is there a woman who has not faced harassment?? I doubt. Such a shame that many of Society’s components still think the fault lies with the way women dress! 😦
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🙂 Hugs!! And look forward to reading many, many more such posts.
Thank you IHM and hugs to you 🙂
Congratulations 🙂 This post in one of the winners of ‘Tejaswee Rao Blogging Awards – 2011’ (TRBA 2011). We would like to create an ebook with all the winning entries in 47 categories on Feminism and Gender Issues in India (and one category on Animals Rights). Please do let us know if you are fine with your winning post/s being included in this ebook. ( Please click here to let us know).
Thank you once again 🙂 I am fine with the e-book 🙂
What a punch of a post, Shail!
The same old adage- Mullu ilayil veenalum, ila mullil veenalum, dosham elakku ( whether thorn falls on the leaf or leaf falls on the thorn, the blame will always rest on the leaf) :(.
“Shame on you Society!”..you said it!
Thanks Deeps. I get really pissed off with people who bring up the dress-of-the-women argument. Those of them who cannot control themselves should go get themselves treated, not blame women.
My hackles rise when I hear that ila and mullu wala chollu!
Shail, I loved all your posts and the conviction you have displayed. You never mince your words. Can’t agree more with your views. We need more of your kind. All the best!
Welcome to Shail’s Nest Bhagirathi and thank you. 🙂 Glad of your appreciation 🙂
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Brilliant Shail !!! As usual this is one of ur “Hit the nail on the head” kind of posts !!! 🙂
Thank you Uma. Read your post too. 🙂
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That was brilliant, Shail. I cannot understand this concept of men ‘losing control’ at the sight of women – forget about what they are dressed in. As you said, how can a 4 year old be dressed in anything ‘provocative’! I remember reading somewhere about a 6 month old getting raped! I assume she was being provocative too?
It is high time that we stop blaming the victims and put the blame where it belongs -at the perpetrators. Someone else cannot be responsible for a crime that one commits – so why are we so eager, as a society, to let rapists get away so easily?
Talking about the 4-year old was like the last straw on the camel’s back. How anyone can think this way is beyond me. I wanted to shake that person hard to make them see reason.
Then there are those who say they see some dressed skimpily and go rape another (more conservatively. Very conveniently explained, is it not? How it angers me.
I get seriously depressed when I read comments on such news stories in places like the TOI. It’s as if there’s no hope for humanity! My only consolation is that the rest of us are usually too lazy to take the time to comment in such a place and so seem under represented…
If you look at the blogosphere though, the number of open minded, fair blog authors vastly outnumbers the bigoted ones. There are just a few of the latter – and thousands upon thousands of the former.
That must make us feel good I guess…
This was a discussion on Facebook Bhagwad and so was more distressing for me to read. They were not my friends, but the discussion was visible to me.
I live in a place and among people who think along the lines of the comments that triggered this post. I have yet to meet someone who thinks the same way as the lone commentator. It is rather suffocating. Why do you think I am so glad to be in the blogosphere? 🙂 It has finally put me in contact with open-minded people in what is practically the fourth decade of my life when I had almost given up hope.
I used to blog at Yahoo 360 but only when I came across IHM’s old posts and some of Ritu’s… .. only then did I feel I was going somewhere. From then on it has been one discovery after another. 🙂
“It is my belief that the Indian male is in general too immature to appreciate the opposite sex. ”
An immaturity that comes from inexperience. On that note, as much as some people think it is impossible, a man’s regressive attitude towards women can be ‘uninstalled’. I ran a small scale project in my college, using Baron’s techniques of attitude modification and it worked very satisfactorily.
I think people need to understand that human behaviours and attitudes are far more complex and are far more ingrained into our psyche (for evolutionary reasons) than software in a computer. The threat of punishment, the de facto mode of handling rape and molestation cases in India, works only as a partial deterrant, not a solution. The more long term solution is gender sensitisation, to make men aware of the human-ness of women. For Indian men of certain societies, women outside their family are an ‘alien species’ that they neither deciper nor understand.
Also, harassment of women is not just a gender problem, but a part of a larger problem where a lot of traditional Indians are unable to respect people who don’t fit into their social mold. While I was discussing the issue of harassment of women in Delhi, a Manipuri social activist told me that it is not just women who are harassed but a lot of North Eastern men are harassed as well, by Indians who think of them as an oddity. They could be targeted for anything ranging from long hair, punk dressing style or even their distinctly Mongoloid characteristics. Unfortunately, this is one area not talked about by the media because men’s problems generally don’t generate sensation, plus men are unlikely to report a case of harassment or disparaging remarks.
Sorry for not having got back to this comment. I agree with every word you have written.
Moreover, when a girl is teased by someone, even if everyone would scold the molester but along with that that girl is also instructed not wear clothes of her choice, even if it’s not skimpy, even if she has worn jeans-top & covered from head to toe. 😦
Very true. Every girl goes through her life with such instructions all the time and if anything happens which is not her fault, then too she and her attire is criticized. Apologies for late response.
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This post deserves all the accolades it can get. Speaking truth as it is.
Thank you, Jas (once again, late) 🙂
Since when did the clothes women wear make indicate a chance of rape? :Even if you don’t wear skimpy dress and dress modest, it doesn’t prevent rape. There are so many sick perverts there who at times are sexually driven that they will rape anyone, and nowadays boys and young men ! I think the problem is that we let men get away of things..we need to stop that, and perhaps create equality.
The truth is rape is not about sex. “…experts including Nicholas Groth categorically rule that rape is a pseudo sexual act that primarily serves non sexual needs.” From here http://indiaopines.com/uber-taxi-rapist-delhi/
Well said Shail! Am reading this in 2023 but still what happened to madhu ( in tribal Attapadi) chills my bones. Society’s perception of crime, criminal and victim is totally skewed.
Absolutely agree with you, Reena!