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I wrote this a few years back while blogging on a different platform. Recently I came across similar situations faced by other women and felt the blog is relevant enough to be re-posted here.
I was talking to a lady online yesterday and well into our chat, she remarked,
“It’s so nice I am enjoying talking to my hubby’s friend.” And she added, making it clearer, “his GF!” (Girl Friend)
Hmmm…. I laughed out loud.
“Hats off!!” she typed.
That had me stumped. To whom? For what?
“To me.” She answered my question.
“Do you think it is easy talking to a girl friend of hubby??”
Stumped again. I was dubious about what my reaction should be as much as what her intent had been. So I merely inserted a smiling emoticon, awaiting further developments.
She apologized and added that it had just been a thought she articulated and she WAS happy talking to me. Yes, that had been my impression too up till the point she spoke of I being her husband’s GF. Technically of course I am. I am female and her husband’s friend. So, what else describes me any better? And I could only hope that that was all she had meant.
This conversation left me thinking. I have grown up in the same traditional Indian family where girls were not supposed to talk to boys. I have spent my formative years in all-girls’ schools except for a brief stint in a mixed school for one solitary year when I was thirteen (and during which time I was monitored by hawk eyes). The colleges I attended were also those of the women-only ones until I ended up in ‘mixed’ company once again during post graduation days.
In spite of the strict and traditional up bringing I have never subscribed (and none have been able to convince me so far) to the view that talking to boys/men constitutes a crime in itself. Whenever travelling or such, while still a student, I have never been hesitant about taking part in a conversations with someone of the opposite sex. I knew girls who would shy away from replying any question put to them. Not me.
What the intentions of the other parties were or what they thought of me while we conversed, never bothered me. After all they also came from the same traditional upbringing and probably thought I was not brought up properly, was of loose morals, easily available yada yada yada in much the same manner as people in the here and now do. I spoke with them about movies, books, studies or whatever interested us at the moment and when I reached my destination (or they theirs) waved a cheerful goodbye. That was that.
Goes without saying of course that during these times I had been on my own and not accompanied by elders of the family, in which case I would have had to sit stiff and silent the whole of the journey pretending as if none else existed around us. Of course at those times, the boys would eye you from time to time, talk loudly, do silly things to attract attention which made the elders sitting with you slowly and surely start resembling a stuffed frog by the minute.
I have personally never understood (not then, not now) the logic of not letting the opposite sexes mix. I feel it is a dangerous formula for unwanted liaisons developing rather than one for the protection of the oh-so-glorified ‘Indian womanhood’ (of which I am fed up to here) as most see it.
Anyway as I was saying, it is in this background that I have grown up, rebelling at every step against orders like, ‘˜Go inside” “Don’t stand here” “˜Don’t go there!” “Don’t look to that side!” etc etc etc. And many times when we girls are simply having a swell time giggling and talking, we are chased off the premises because some boys had sauntered into the vicinity and were standing eyeing us. Now tell me, how fair is that? And are we even spoken to civilly? Oh no! The elders shout at us to get back in as if we have committed some grave mistake. How? By merely existing? I assure you no man unless he is empathetic to the core understands what it is to be a girl/woman. He has never been there.
Now, having had to follow the rules of the time (Yup, most of my molars have been ground away) did not mean that I agreed with them. But I know for a fact that many of the feminine gender around me accepted the diktats thrown at them without even a second thought, as if they deserved to be scolded. Some even had these fancy notions, which theme they developed to perfection when they grew up, that it was all for our own good. Talk about successful indoctrination. Not even in some remote part of their so called minds did they ever question any of this. Soon, I too became outwardly more accepting about things in general. Perhaps it had seeped unknowingly into my system too, because I had turned into this goody-goody traditional girl who followed all the rules. Or maybe I did not have a choice and succumbed to survive..
Over time, marriage and two children later, as also due to changing circumstances, I have been able to undo to a large extent, some of the conditioning I made myself undergo and be myself. It is like breathing once again. Let me add here that the youngsters of today who have more freedom to be themselves, sadly do NOT accord the same to their elders. Most of them are selfish in their freedom to want it ONLY for themselves and not for their elders. (Yeah, that is another blog)
Now well into my forties and a netizen, the last vestiges of the taboo of not speaking to/interacting with those of the opposite sex, or accepting them as friends has been blown in the wind for me. Of course it goes without saying one has to pick and choose the right persons. The same traditional society spawns these men you choose to be friends with and not many of them are ready as yet for friendships. Quite a few of them are on the lookout for fraandships.
As luck would have it, the other half (L& M) has also moved with the times, maybe not as much as I have, but enough to accept my online male buddies. He is ever willing to meet them and has got on famously with most all of them. Never has he questioned me (like some husbands do) in a high-handed manner or even in any manner whatsoever, to check the antecedents and background of said friends whom I talk about or have introduced him to. In short he treats me like an adult who is capable of making informed choices. But I still cannot say my offspring has reached that level of trusting my capabilities. (And yes, I am not yet sure about how the reactions of the family will be if at all I make a mistake in my choice of friends. Am I allowed to make mistakes and still be supported, remains to be seen.)
So, in short, in spite of being born and brought up in traditional India and never ever having set foot out of this land (I wrote this before I made that trip to California to look up my son), I have no qualms about talking with those of the opposite sex or calling them my friends. Neither am I fazed (nor have ever been) by the ‘what will people think’ mentality that seems to be the bane of third world countries like India. In fact I have always been cheeky enough to want people to ‘think something’ so that I can laugh in their face and say, “Yes, so what?!” And I am crazy enough to want an opportunity to stick my tongue out to the world and say, “Tchah to you!”
Anyways, it is at this juncture in my life that the above mentioned chat occurred with the wife of an online buddy of mine. What puzzled me about the whole thing was this. The lady I spoke to is well educated and a career woman. I am sure she deals with the opposite sex in the course of her line of work. She probably meets them in a professional capacity as well as in social gatherings that her profession warranties or perhaps otherwise. So aren’t friendships formed there? Don’t you exchange pleasantries, wish each other on festival days, have a cup of coffee together, share jokes or talk about the latest news, make phone calls to know what’s the latest? Don’t you invite some of them home to meet your family over dinner? So are these men in the lives of career women to be specified as “Boy Friends”?
Or is it just that since I am a homemaker who does not normally come in contact with those of the opposite sex outside her own circle of family, husband’s colleagues and friends, I am not entitled to friendships with men? Come to think of it, it is what I believe is widely accepted as the done thing by the Indian part of the world. Does friendship with the opposite sex at work place come without labels unlike those sought by homemakers like me, whether online or otherwise? Just a thought.
Purba said:
Most of us love clinging to the age old adage – the opposite sex can never be friends and if you are buddies she’s probably not attractive enough.
But in my opinion men and women can be friends and those who a problem with it are insecure about their own relationship.
It’s space that makes a relationship strong. It’s faith that nurtures it.
Loved this write-up Shail.
Ashwathy said:
Love your comment Purba 🙂
shail said:
Indeed it is an old and outdated adage. I agree with the insecurity too.
Thank you Purba.
R's Mom said:
loved what you wrote Shail…its so weird na…but honestly I think in Mumbai people are a LOT more forward thinking..at least people I know…I go out for lunch with my former boss alone (without RD!) and boss is not even married..but RD doesnt even bother asking what I ate (Well thats a different story) and RD goes around with his collegues many of whom are girls, and I dont ask him what he drank 😉
Guess slowly there is a change…
One more reason why I put R in a co-ed..though there were excellent girls school in our area…I have my cousins who have studied in girls school and not wanting to sound rude, but their behaviour towards men is pretty weird…every guy who talks to them is spoken to with a caution and dread in mind if he is hitting on them…may be this is not reason enough but I think being in a co-ed just makes the friendship between a boy and girl easier!
OMG! What a long comment phew!
shail said:
R’s Mom, you are a career woman. It seems a homemaker is not allowed the same liberties that a career woman has. What do you say to that? I look around and see career women, even the traditional ones, inviting friends home, going to their colleagues’ houses. But no one thinks it is proper for a homemaker to have friends/make such visits. How is that different, I wonder.
I believe a lot of the ills that our society faces can be halved if we allow the sexes to miss right from childhood. But the culture is to pack off your daughters to an all-girls school as early as possible and then keep an hawk eye on her. Good that you have sent your R to a co-ed school.
phoenixritu said:
I have encountered suspicion, hostility and insecurity from desi ladies, if I am pally with their husbands. Frankly I have encountered the same emotions from certain relatives with a invisible placard hanging around them – “Stay away from my husband!” Women are very insecure … and cant handle other women being friends with their men
Ashwathy said:
Yeah I’ve met my fair share of those kind. And had to lose touch with some very good male buddies in the process. 😐
On the other hand, I have also met some very chilled out girlfriends of my male pals whom I am also friends with…..and now I’ve learnt to appreciate them more thanks to this!
shail said:
I would like to underline, italicize and bold that last sentence. I would also add another peculiar thing I have noticed. Most men for all their bravado do not have the guts to stand up straight and tell their Mom/wife in an honest manner that, “She is my friend.”.
bhagwad said:
Ultimately, if we as a civilization don’t allow a more open mixing of the sexes at every level – school, college, and work – we’re going to continue with the general mindsets that have been prevailing all this time. Men who view women merely as sex objects and without personal aspirations of their own. Early mixing without making a big deal out of it will let both boys and girls know how to live with each other with far less stress.
shail said:
Agree absolutely with that. That is the first step needed.
Hrishi said:
Now where can I do a thumbs up to this
Mysoul said:
This is an issue within our society. I was once warned by a well meaning relative to not spend so much time talking to a Long lost cousin I had just met cause “Even if its your cousin, he is a man”. Yeah! it took a long while to pick my jaw off the floor. I had never figured until that moment, that someone in our circle could have such a “Neech” outlook at relationships with the opposite sex. I have to agree with Ritu above, regarding insecurity among women.
shail said:
Been there Mysoul. I have grown up in an unbelievably restricted and repressed atmosphere. Actually I am surprised at my own self: How did I turn out to be the person that I am, growing up the way I did?
Deeps said:
The society, our sickeningly hypocritical society that doesn’t see anything wrong in pushing its children( daughter, more specifically) into a loveless marriage, even justifying an abusive relationship because they are ‘destined’ to be in such relationships BUT the very society goes all to point fingers at them, castigating them for mixing up with opposite sexes to form nice, sane, simple harmless friendships. Hah! 🙄
Such mindsets harbored by educated people like the woman you’ve mentioned above in your post, Shail, kind of reiterate how gravely ingrained social conditioning is in us for no amount of education seems to be able to shirk that away 😦
shail said:
Yes it does reiterate the conditioning that education and job has not been able to wipe off. Basically, no one ‘thinks’ about what they are doing or saying, they just carry on what’s been told them, continue repeating the same things without a thought.
UmaS said:
While ppl look up on me with smiling faces and appreciate the fact that I am a blogger, I’ve faced a cringing face when they come to know of my blog-friends circle in FB. They are shocked abt this – “How can u – whom we thought were sensible and of good judgement – can trust and become frnds with ppl whom u hv not seen???”
Well written Shail.
shail said:
I am not surprised Uma. I don’t know what some of mine will say to me or are already saying behind my back. Look at that. If you make friends with those you have not seen, you becomes someone who is not sensible. 😦
Towards Harmony said:
Loved the post, brilliant question raised interesting issues in my head.
I wonder if its even an Indian traditional thing about married women not having friends who are men. I am married to a French man and sometimes he gets a little sensitive when I want to meet my boy-friends whom I have known for much longer than I have known him. I am not in the least possessive, so am most often irritated by his reaction. But the fact is that he is French and brought up in a society that is nothing like ours, always went to coed schools but but but still thinks it suspicious that a married working woman could have good boy-friends 🙂 while he can have girl-friends
Strange are the ways of Patriarchy and all its hidden weapons it throws at us while we are not looking. 😉
shail said:
You are right, traditionally Indian women have no male friends. Of course Draupadi had Krishna as friend and Arjun never objected. But epics and myths are quoted only in support of controlling women, never in aid of increased freedom for her.
Indeed Patriarchy is okay with married men having girl friends, but not the other way around?! Strange and unfair.
Bikram said:
the problem is the society .. its always she is talking ot a boy , or that boy talks to so many girls ..
I think we need to find some better timepass for our society.. thats all they do GOSSIP and its this ggossip that brings a bad Repo. I remeber I had a friend in college a female friend and we talked till the cows came home, I never treated her as a opposite sex (if you know what i mean) .. she ws a friend thats it , But she would tell me how her aunt or someone keeps on giving her advice and it was making her uncomfortable for her at home.. Resulting in us parting way and the occasional hi – hello ..
There was nothing wrong in our friendship but obviously people had a problem …
So its the society we need to change especially the people who are (well who think they are) our well-wishers .. and the so called DO GOODERS …
its there narrow thoughts and ways that bring all the problems into the society rather than othewise ..
shail said:
Seriously, people have nothing better to do than to find out who is talking to whom and for how long. Yeah, the society is in urgent need of some better time-pass than this. This reminds me of something I gotta write a blog on 🙂
sangeeta khanna said:
So many of those people appoint themselves as moral police and that seems to be the prime duty given to human beings in our country (at least)..men, women alike.
I have seen some friend’s wives behaving the same way n acknowledging it shamelessly like …how many more girls/women were there with you?…and such.
What I think, the men in this case ‘use the insecurity of wives’ pretending to get a lot of female attention outside the home and the family……and why the wife is insecure is quite well linked to the former truth…isn’t it….As Purba said ..they are insecure about their own relationships.
Society has been the same for all of us…some have chosen to behave sensibly and some pretend to expose others while they cover up their own skeletons under the carpet.
shail said:
Yeah, I have seen wives call up and ask questions like, Where are you? Udhar kya kar rahe ho? Kaun kaun hai aapke saath?’ etc etc. I am sure men will too except that they know the wife is secure at home under the hawk eyes of his own mother (in most cases, that is).
And I absolutely agree with you about how some men shamelessly stoke the firs of the wife’s insecurities by flaunting the number of girl friends they have. The net is proof of what the male population thinks of having girl friends. The greater the number on their list the happier they seem to be. Strange how a man’s worth to him seems to come from the number of women friends he is able to accumulate. Nothing but losers.
Giribala said:
Very nice write up! We have come a long way….let others catch up 🙂
shail said:
Welcome to Shail’s Nest Giribala. 🙂 Well, that’s true. But what makes society frown on a homemaker who talks and befriends an outsider male but (grudgingly of course) allows career women ti cavort with colleagues? 🙂
rajnid said:
🙂 Career women face it too Shail.If you are perceived to be too close to a male buddy at work eyebrows are raised & whispers start.Funny enough it’s always the women who are at the receiving end here too.
shail said:
I totally agree with that Rajni. I can imagine the hawk eyes of in-laws and society on any friendship between the opposite sexes in the office too. But in the case of a homemaker, the question of friendship does not arise at all.
For example, my M-i-L was okay with s-i-l attending functions at her colleagues place and they coming over to their place on social visits. But she would have been scandalized if I went out ot meet a male friend acquired on my own.
Yes it is always women at the receiving end.
Anonymously Disguised said:
hmmm…err I am one of those who get along quiet well with male friends and I am a homemaker 😆
shail said:
Errr… I too am a homemaker and get along famously with my male friends. 😀
shail said:
I forgot, *same pinch* 😀
maddy said:
I am wondering…..how did I introduce you to my wife when we met!!! -):
shail said:
Lol, as your friend? 🙂 You Maddy are one of my friends worthy of the name 🙂 And I respect your wife though I have met her only once.
vishvanaathjee said:
I have gained more female friends (including you) in the blog world in the past 12 months than in my entire lifetime!
My wife is amused at the time I spend reading these blogs and posting comments, but she has no problem! She doesn’t share my interest in blogs but is receptive when I occasionally read out to her interesting extracts from blogs or comments or discuss the debates raging here.
It would be embarrassing for me, in real life, to barge in when a group of ladies are discussing something. I certainly don’t do that. But here in the blog world, I can do it without raising eyebrows.
Becoming friends with the opposite sex is easier when the friendship is online
You don’t have to worry about your looks.
What matters is how you come across in your writing.
I have unreservedly made my facial features and age public and given basic information about myself and my family in my profile. I don’t believe and am not comfortable with anonymity. I respect others preference for anonymity but have no use for it myself.
I want every one of my female blog friends (many of whom are in their twenties and younger than my daughter) to know my age.
That way, I can be sure my intentions will never be misunderstood.
Like you, I too have had a traditional upbringing. I studied in a boy’s school and have experienced strict segregation during my childhood and adolescence.
Only in Engineering college was I exposed to the opposite sex but we had just 12 girls in our batch of 300 students so that is hardly an experience in co education.
In my professional life, I dealt only with males mostly due to the nature of my profession.
I learned to socialize with women only here in blogosphere and am frankly enjoying it.
I could relate to your post and I share your views.
Regards
GV
amit said:
GV,
our times were different…but is this not how extramarital affairs begin.Feeling drawn towards another person.Nobody would be happy if their spouse confessed to this.
shail said:
Welcome to Shail’s Nest Amit. Sorry you will have to explain your comment further for me to understand it. As it stands now, words like ;’confessed to this’, ‘drawn towards another person’ ‘extra-marital affair’ etc are rather confusing in relation to something like friendship.
vishvanaathjee said:
Amit,
Like Shail, I too am not sure I have understood what you are saying.
Just in case I myself have been unclear in expressing my thoughts, let me clarify.
I am attracted by the WRITINGS of several excellent lady bloggers with whom I have been interacting during the past year.
I am not attracted physically to any of them.How can I be? Except for a few of them who have put up their pictures I have no idea what they look like, what they do for a living and how old they are and where they live and I will make no attempt to find out. All my discussions with them deal with the topic at hand and never have I ever engaged any of them in a private intimate dialogue. I enjoy these public dialogues and they are 100 percent platonic. My wife is fully aware of my interest in blogs and is also aware that many of these bloggers are women. She has no problem with this interest of mine.
Pardon me if I have misunderstood you totally, but it would help if you explained a little better what is in your mind. Do you feel this interaction is undesirable and dangerous and could lead to extra marital affairs?
Thank you for responding.
Regards
GV
Mysoul said:
Hmmm Amit..Drawn to a story, topic, subject, debate etc.. is very different from being drawn to a person isnt it?
shail said:
Though our times were different GV, I have never been comfortable in the ways of those times. Being a homemaker I have never had reason to come across or befriend them other than as the husband’s colleagues, neighbors, relatives etc. But yes, the blogworld has changed things and I have friends from all over the world and their being male is only incidental.
Like you I simply am not comfortable with anonymity. I wish to be known as myself. And yes, I don’t want any misunderstandings about my age either. So I make sure it is known. 🙂
Usha Pisharody said:
I posted on FB that I empathised greatly with this. Reading it again (thankfully on the larger screen :D) I am jolted again, by the thought of the amount of innuendos, remarks, and general “talk” that had been generated / still is being generated ( 😛 ) by my interaction with others of the opposite sex. But this is mostly here, in Kerala, where the mindset is still in the dark ages.
It has to start young, the “mixing”, enabling young people to look upon interactions with the opposite sex as normal. But even that is sabotaged, in school, in colleges… wherever. If children are seen spending too much time with the opposite sex, just talking, fooling around, they are warned, cautioned, not just by parents, but even teachers. Sigh. We need to grow up, seriously. And still, we demand from them, (actual words, mind you, mind it 😛 ), maintain “healthy relationship” !!!
shail said:
Yes, we are still in the dark ages. Thasni Banu incident comes to mind. I used to pretend to be blind and deaf when comments came my way when my sons’ friends used to visit or they went out together for movies, coffee etc. If that happens to the young, I can well imagine the situation when it is the case of older generation being friends. It is the bane of our society that people have an abnormal interest in what’s going on between two people (man and woman) though it does not concern them. Of course they have their lame arguments on why they take an interest. And friendship? They don’t even know what that is. They know of only one relation between man and woman and that’s sexual. But I’d say even that is not their bloody business. Aaargh… when will some light fall on this repressed society of ours?
kanwar said:
You have put words to my thoughts and dilemmas, Shail..
Could it be because ‘such women’ don’t enjoy the same freedom themselves. It can be that men who are our ‘great and understanding friends’ do not follow the same principles when it comes to their own wives..
(Have been a regular visitor to your blog… De-lurking now 😉 )
shail said:
Welcome to Shail’s Nest Kanwar. Sorry I missed responding to your comment earlier.
You bet many of the men I know do not give the same freedom that they themselves enjoy to the wife. And some women refuse the freedom (they don’t know what to do with it) and instead conform to the rigid rules of society and splash ‘holier than thou’ all over us.
Good of you to de-lurk 🙂 Keep visiting 🙂
Hrishi said:
I have always found this conversation awkward. Some of the elders/other friends some times express their disapproval at how I get along with my female friends. Some of them confuse it to be as having multiple girlfriends at the same time. I tell them that they’re girl-friends and not girlfriends. (Although on a rare occasion, how I wish) Any way.. For them the only relation they see is that of romance. And when romance is not of the type that they have sanctioned or approved .. ooh things get heated up.. Let’s take the two of us.. You and I we met so innocently on 360 years ago, because I was curious to know of the lady who was throwing red bricks at others in the comments of their blogs. And for quite a time, things have been so wonderful between us. When you came to baroda, I didn’t stab you and you didn’t poison the food you fed me. Yet some people get so many ideas… Three of my best friends are women.. And I don’t see any thing wrong with it. Like bhagwad said above “(unless we)don’t allow a more open mixing of the sexes at every level – school, college, and work – we’re going to continue with the general mindsets that have been prevailing all this time. Men who view women merely as sex objects and without personal aspirations of their own. Early mixing without making a big deal out of it will let both boys and girls know how to live with each other with far less stress.”